ShipTalk S03E08 - From Motocross to Microservices (Kyle Galbraith, CEO of depot.dev)

In this episode, Dewan sits down (virtually) with Kyle Galbraith, co-founder of Depot, to explore his unique journey from motocross videographer to startup founder. Kyle shares how his early experiences in film and programming shaped his approach to solving technical problems, and why he co-founded Depot to tackle the challenge of slow build processes.

Kyle dives into the real impact of inefficient builds on developer productivity, team morale, and business innovation. He explains his leadership philosophy of "radical transparency and brutal honesty," and offers valuable insights on balancing rapid delivery with stability, the importance of documentation, and his vision for the future of developer tools in an AI-driven world.

Whether you're a developer frustrated with slow builds, a technical leader looking to improve team performance, or an aspiring entrepreneur, this conversation offers practical wisdom on building solutions that truly enhance developer experience.

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Follow Kyle on X: https://x.com/kylegalbraith
Connect with Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylegalbraith459/
Kyle's personal blog: https://blog.kylegalbraith.com/
Learn about Depot: https://depot.dev/blog

Transcript

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Dewan Ahmed: Bienvenue sur ShipTalk Podcast. Je m'appelle Dewan. Welcome to ShipTalk. Podcast my name is Dewan, your co-host for ShipTalk podcast where we talk about ins and outs ups and downs of software delivery.

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Dewan Ahmed: and I'm sure those of you who speak French can tell that I'm not a native French speaker. With here, I have Kyle Galbraith, co-founder, and CEO of depot, dev. Welcome to the ship, talk, podcast, and let us know how to correctly say, welcome to ship, talk, podcast.

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Kyle Galbraith: Bienvenue a ship talk podcast.

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Dewan Ahmed: Perfect, and someone told me that you taught yourself French. I have Duolingo installed on my phone, and I'm secretly trying to learn French. But before we dive into software delivery, could you please share with our listeners like, how did you manage to to speak fluent French.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah. So my story into French really began when I met my wife back in Portland, Oregon, at college.

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Kyle Galbraith: Essentially

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Kyle Galbraith: met her. We went to visit her family in France, and I just fell in love with the culture and the country, and from that point forward decided. Okay, I'm going to go learn French

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Kyle Galbraith: started with Duolingo, moved to memrise eventually, like

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Kyle Galbraith: ran out of vocabulary to go learn.

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Kyle Galbraith: and effectively. This was before our son was born. 2 years before our son was born. I told my wife that if she wants to have kids she can only speak French with me. So it was like a forcing function, kind of immersion back in the Us. Of you must speak French at home, and so immersion did wonders for me.

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Dewan Ahmed: Immersive learning in a pretty pretty strong condition. So now we can officially start the podcast would you share with the listeners your journey from being a freelance videographer and editor to co-founding depot dev in your journey into software delivery. How was that like.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, no, this is a great question. Thank you for asking. It's not very many people that ask me about my videography

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Kyle Galbraith: background. But yeah, I guess my story really begins at

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Kyle Galbraith: I grew up racing motocross from like the age of 8, so pretty much like from 8 years old on, I spent most of my time at Motocross tracks, racing motorcycles with my dad and my family.

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Kyle Galbraith: and just kind of fell into that scene, and as I grew up. I just started creating videos and films of my friends racing

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Kyle Galbraith: For a long time I thought I was going to go to film school. So I was planning on going to Usc. Film School down in Southern California.

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Kyle Galbraith: but ended up going to a small film school back in Portland for one year, and absolutely hated it

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Kyle Galbraith: like, did not, did not enjoy it at all. It was not the experience that I wanted.

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Kyle Galbraith: But that's also where I took my 1st computer science class. And that was my 1st introduction into programming and computer science. And

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Kyle Galbraith: for me, that just got me hooked. And I fell in love program from the Get Go.

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Kyle Galbraith: and from there I ended up leaving there and joining a small startup.

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Kyle Galbraith: Back in Portland that was a company called Zapproved building legal software, and I was the 5th or 6th employee there. And so

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Kyle Galbraith: I always think back to that time, as that had a major influence on my career

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Kyle Galbraith: probably is why I'm doing what I'm doing today is I started my career in a startup and I just fell in love with that.

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Kyle Galbraith: During that time I was finishing my computer science degree

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Kyle Galbraith: and working full time as a software engineer.

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Kyle Galbraith: Which is, I like to say, is probably the hardest period of my life.

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Kyle Galbraith: working 40 HA week, doing schoolwork the nights and weekends on top of it.

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Kyle Galbraith: But that really like shaped me into

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Kyle Galbraith: a software engineer and focused on like solving problems at a startup scale.

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Kyle Galbraith: And I think that's where I got the the bug. Really, I got the bug to

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Kyle Galbraith: always be working in that environment. And pretty much from the moment that I started working at that company I knew I was going to go start a company on my own.

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Dewan Ahmed: That's fantastic. You mentioned about shaping your path or shaping your career path.

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Dewan Ahmed: Some people say that doesn't matter what you learn. It's never wasted. So you learn about, let's say videography and editing. You work as a Qa. Engineer, you work as a platform engineer. How do you say? All of those skills defined the path that you took.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, it's a really good question, I think, for me.

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Kyle Galbraith: Videography did something for me in terms of. I figured out

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Kyle Galbraith: that I enjoy creative work, which I think is an advantage that I have

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Kyle Galbraith: has. Like a technical, you know, technical role.

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Kyle Galbraith: I enjoy writing. I enjoy storytelling. I enjoy creating videos and content and things like that.

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Kyle Galbraith: As I moved as I started my career in Qa engineering, I think how that shaped my path for me is

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Kyle Galbraith: to always be looking at things through a customer's perspective.

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Kyle Galbraith: Always trying to put myself in their shoes

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Kyle Galbraith: and think about like, how could this be better for them.

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Kyle Galbraith: Then kind of moving onwards out of Qa engineering into early like software engineering roles. It was really

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Kyle Galbraith: getting an understanding of what building quality software looks like

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Kyle Galbraith: and building software that solves specific problems. So there's

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Kyle Galbraith: I like to think that there's kind of like 2 paths within building software. There's the like very technical engineering oriented path of like.

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Kyle Galbraith: I need to go write this driver.

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Kyle Galbraith: or I need to go optimize this SQL query, or I'm going to write this new database technology.

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Kyle Galbraith: Those are very deep, deep, technical paths, and totally valid in solving a specific set of problems.

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Kyle Galbraith: But I think that early those early roles really gave me an understanding of. I enjoy solving the

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Kyle Galbraith: things that live slightly above that level. I enjoy solving the things that solve business problems for people.

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Kyle Galbraith: And I think that really shaped my view of

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Kyle Galbraith: building a startup and building software to solve problems.

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Kyle Galbraith: Then, as we as I move through staff and principal engineering roles.

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Kyle Galbraith: That for me was more like, okay, here's how you

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Kyle Galbraith: not build a specific piece of software to a problem. But here's how you build a

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Kyle Galbraith: system of solutions to a problem. So

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Kyle Galbraith: which is really like how we're building depot nowadays.

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Dewan Ahmed: And would love to go into that. You like co-founding depot. But before that I want to touch on your technical background, it seems you have been a very hands-on engineer, and we both went to engineering school, probably, and we don't learn about the business side of things almost

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Dewan Ahmed: most of the time. It's some 101 courses like we don't teach how to do taxes. So with your engineering background, whether you learn in school or you self-taught. What are some of the advantages? And what about some of the misses that you say? Oh, no! Like some of my peers. They learned this in school. Have you seen a contrast on your engineering skills? Versus some, maybe, miss of the business world.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, I think

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Kyle Galbraith: for me, not really because I started so early in startups. And so by working within a startup early in my career. I was exposed to a lot of business things right out of the gate.

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Kyle Galbraith: That's not always true. I think I think I was special in that. The startup that I joined was super transparent, and was very honest and sharing everything that was going on with the business. That's definitely not universally true across startups.

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Kyle Galbraith: So I think for me, starting a developer tool startup and having the engineering background. And that experience gives me a bit of a leg up there that said, there's still a whole world of things that are new to me, especially as a 1st time founder.

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Kyle Galbraith: So you you can read and hear people talk about fundraising

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Kyle Galbraith: for hours on end. But until you go through that experience

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Kyle Galbraith: you don't actually know what it's like. And I think for me, that was, I definitely have

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Kyle Galbraith: going through Y combinator. I definitely have batchmates and friends where I think that was an easier experience for them. They knew what to expect. And for me it was definitely a

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Kyle Galbraith: a new type of experience, and one that I think I learned a lot about myself from like a mental standpoint.

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Dewan Ahmed: And I think this is a perfect segue to talk about depot dev. What inspired you to to build depot dev, and your.

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Dewan Ahmed: I guess, like macroscopic view of solving things at a bit higher level, inspired that vision.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah. So depot was really born out of

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Kyle Galbraith: effectively, Jacob and I. So Jacob's the other co-founder of depot, James and I worked together

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Kyle Galbraith: 6 and a half years, or something like that

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Kyle Galbraith: at 2 different companies before starting depot. So we worked at a nonprofit.

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Kyle Galbraith: and then we worked at a database startup. And at both companies we were effectively software turned platform engineers. We were the ones responsible for building containers, setting up Ci CD pipelines.

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Kyle Galbraith: deploying containers into governments like FBI and department of homeland, security and interpol.

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Kyle Galbraith: And really Debo was born out of our hate and disdain for slow and inefficient builds.

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Kyle Galbraith: I would say, we face the problem of slow builds inside of Github actions, particularly around container image builds

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Kyle Galbraith: probably 2 years before we started depot, and it was finally like, after 2 years, that Jacob and I were like, Hey, what if we did this?

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Kyle Galbraith: And we prototyped what was effectively v. 0 of depot back then.

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Kyle Galbraith: and we made our own builds 5 times faster

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Kyle Galbraith: when our hypothesis was, we'll make our own builds 2 times faster.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so

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Kyle Galbraith: really like working backwards, working from that as a starting place. Really kind of like. Set us up into the direction that we're going now, which is our goal, is to go and make builds

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Kyle Galbraith: as close to near instant as possible. And when I say builds, I

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Kyle Galbraith: literally mean all software builds. So today we focus on Github action runners and docker image builds.

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Kyle Galbraith: But really there's a whole plethora of inputs. That depot as a platform can take in.

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Dewan Ahmed: And how does let's say slow builds right affect the engineering team. Of course, we understand that you, as a developer, you're trying to get a build done. There's some Xkcd my build is running. So we're playing ping pong. But how does it affect

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Dewan Ahmed: all engineering teams? Not just the person who's trying to to finish a build. But how does the ripple ripple effect affect all engineering team?

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, I think slow builds

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Kyle Galbraith: have a much greater impact than people realize. And I think there's more and more scientific research coming out about this, particularly

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Kyle Galbraith: of effectively slow builds

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Kyle Galbraith: impact business innovation. So the slower build, the slower you can iterate on your own product and ship

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Kyle Galbraith: new features or bug fixes to your customers

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Kyle Galbraith: impacts security response. So for the same reason, slower build the slower it is to respond to

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Kyle Galbraith: a 0 day type of security, vulnerability.

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Kyle Galbraith: But I think the 3rd thing is the thing that more and more scientific research is coming out, which is effectively

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Kyle Galbraith: slow builds increase cognitive overhead on developers and engineering teams and increase context switching.

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Kyle Galbraith: And the combination of those 2 things over a prolonged period of time can really like drag down the morale and developer happiness across your team.

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Kyle Galbraith: which, as we've learned, ultimately leads to developers leaving your company and going and joining other ones, which also impacts business innovation.

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Kyle Galbraith: So I think what we're starting to learn with depot and what we're starting to see

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Kyle Galbraith: with our our space is effectively.

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Kyle Galbraith: companies need to care about build performance far more than they are today.

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Dewan Ahmed: Totally agreed, and so on. The note of companies and their build performance. What is slow, like, what is slow for one company might be super fast for the other. How have you seen this spectrum? I'm sure, like you have worked with like dozens of companies, and you work as an engineer, and now working as a co-founder. And CEO, how do you see? Companies define slow.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, this is this is the 1 million dollar question. Honestly, it's like what is slow, because some companies we talk to like

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Kyle Galbraith: we're like, your build takes an hour, and they're like, yeah, but at least it doesn't take 12.

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Kyle Galbraith: That's a mind-blowing type of response for me as a founder

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Kyle Galbraith: for us as engineers. It was 5 min. 5 min was if something took longer than 5 min, it was like, that's slow. That should be faster.

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Kyle Galbraith: I would say across our experience, it's anywhere from 5 to 20 min. So, and that tends to be like people that are okay with 20 min. They're building really heavy things, especially nowadays, with all of the buzz around AI and Llms.

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Kyle Galbraith: Those types of builds are moving much more data. They're doing much more complex

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Kyle Galbraith: types of operations, and so folks naturally expect those to be slower.

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Kyle Galbraith: But yeah, 5 to 20 min is like the threshold

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Kyle Galbraith: and where so, where slow is, varies wildly across all kinds of engineering teams. So

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Kyle Galbraith: for some folks, it's their container image builds. So we have a solution to that for other folks. It's

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Kyle Galbraith: it's their webpack stuff, or it's their integration tests. Or it's their end-to-end tests like.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so you really, it really varies across teams. And it really varies across stacks as well.

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Dewan Ahmed: True and a faster build process would not solve a crappy architecture or a bad design or overbloated app, just like sprinkling kubernetes, won't solve all the issues now, teams or engineering teams who are trying to adopt

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Dewan Ahmed: rapid release, but also want to keep keep stability. What would be your suggestion? Like initially, you just want to get things out right. You have mostly worried startups, and you know the value of getting things released fast. But you also break things which comes naturally. Where do you see the right balance?

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, I think this is a really good question, and one that should be

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Kyle Galbraith: asked more frequently across all kinds of engineering teams. It should be almost like a precursor question to starting

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Kyle Galbraith: a new product or a new like go to market motion, or a new product is

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Kyle Galbraith: what is the threshold for stability and quality. I don't think this question is asked nearly enough.

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Kyle Galbraith: My personal view of this is

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Kyle Galbraith: rapid. Delivery means rapid response as well. So if you can deliver quickly, meaning you can build quickly. You can commit quickly. You can move through your tests quickly. You can get it into production quickly. You can respond quickly. So for me, it's really

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Kyle Galbraith: I don't like things that are super superficial. Gates to something

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Kyle Galbraith: of like this must go through this branch. Then this branch, and then it can go to production.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think if you have rapid delivery, you can essentially pass it through your

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Kyle Galbraith: I'll call your benchmark for stability and quality, and if that passes, then you just ship it to production, and if something goes wrong great.

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Kyle Galbraith: you either quickly fix it, and ship that which goes through the same rapid delivery.

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Kyle Galbraith: or you have a means of like being able to quickly roll it back.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think the other thing that I see.

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Kyle Galbraith: and that we also apply at depot, which is.

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Kyle Galbraith: if we're unsure of what the stability of of it is. We put it behind a feature flag.

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Kyle Galbraith: so that away like it can go through the same rapid delivery. But then we can slowly control the release of it.

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Kyle Galbraith: and then it's not

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Kyle Galbraith: taking out the entire customer base right? Maybe it's only taking out our builds. And we figure out, okay, like that wasn't the right thing.

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Dewan Ahmed: Yeah, indeed. And

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Dewan Ahmed: this developer experience is a word that gets thrown out often. And you have, like, deep expertise in developer tooling.

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Dewan Ahmed: Where do you see? Developer tooling and documentation being part of the overall pie of developer experience? So the whole pie is developer experience.

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Dewan Ahmed: A chunk of that is like tooling onboarding docs. How do you define the chunk of these these pieces?

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, I think for me, developer experience, the Pi analogy is a great one.

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Kyle Galbraith: effectively. Developer tools and documentation, I would say, are probably 20 to 30% of that pie. The other 70% is really all of the other processes that are individual or unique to an engineering team.

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Kyle Galbraith: Which is like, what's the management structure? What's your development philosophy like? What's your tech stack?

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Kyle Galbraith: But developer tooling and documentation is probably anywhere between 20 and 30% where essentially like.

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Kyle Galbraith: if you can have top of the line developer tools that get out of your way and make your life exponentially easier. That's going to make any product or any tech stack that you're building with exponentially better.

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Kyle Galbraith: Similarly, those tools can only really be top of the line with great documentation. So it's the whole like, if you build it, they won't just come right. If you build a great developer tool and you have really terrible documentation.

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Kyle Galbraith: or a developer finds your tool opens up your documentation, and they have no idea what it does

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Kyle Galbraith: or how to use it. Then, like, you're not getting them the ultimate tool to go, make their life easier.

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Dewan Ahmed: Couldn't agree more. And I think there's a common misconception that the developers they don't read documentation. Well, they do developers whenever they try a new tool documentation is is one of the 1st places they'll go. Whether it's text documentation, whether they're going to your Youtube channel to look at onboarding guide. They do look at the manual, which is mostly your developer. Docs.

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Kyle Galbraith: I feel pretty confident in saying, like 95 to 98% of developers that sign up and use depot

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Kyle Galbraith: don't sign up or use depot before reading the documentation.

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Kyle Galbraith: They want to understand, like.

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Kyle Galbraith: really like, what is the pain points? This is solving like, what is the use? Cases they want to understand the pricing, and they want to understand like.

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Kyle Galbraith: is this thing still alive? Right? Which is, if it's not been updated or supported for 2 years, then, like a developer, doesn't want to go and adopt that tool.

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Dewan Ahmed: Totally, and it's almost like your marketing page.

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Dewan Ahmed: in a sense that it shouldn't screen marketing. But it's 1 of your public facing page that you can use to to make the 1st impression to developers. So we're talking about dogs. And my listeners could probably sense where this is going, because there hasn't been any podcast where it didn't bring up the point of devrel. So you, it was your background of video editing. I know you have a personal blog. So you

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Dewan Ahmed: you do take enjoy in writing. How do you say? A co-founder who himself is practicing public speaking, public outreach, or advocacy? The term we use influences the whole company to create content.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, I think it really sets the tone of what we're trying to go and accomplish.

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Kyle Galbraith: I really, I'm going to use this analogy again, but if you build it, they won't just come.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so I think for for me there's this debate of

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Kyle Galbraith: product versus distribution. And so there's some companies that lean very heavily towards product, and they don't focus on distribution at all, meaning they don't focus on content meaning they don't focus on educating developers. They don't focus on public speaking, they solely focus on product.

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Kyle Galbraith: And I think for me

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Kyle Galbraith: in my experience, that's not the right path. At least, that's not the right path for me, and I think we've concluded that's not the right path

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Kyle Galbraith: for depot, which is, we've always been very transparent about what we're building. We've always been very

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Kyle Galbraith: transparent and like sharing what our knowledge.

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Kyle Galbraith: One of the things that we always talk about internally is.

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Kyle Galbraith: should we make this a blog post. Should we share how? We're bringing these instances online faster. And

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Kyle Galbraith: you know deep technical concepts. And we always default to yes, where effectively like, nobody can replicate us as humans and as engineers.

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Kyle Galbraith: So you might as well share the knowledge because it helps

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Kyle Galbraith: other engineering teams out there, even if they choose not to use depot, it helps them. And so I think

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Kyle Galbraith: when it comes to developer advocacy and really public speaking and things like that.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think, leaning into that very early.

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Kyle Galbraith: gives you a massive head, start over everything else.

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Dewan Ahmed: Totally

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Dewan Ahmed: you mentioned about like setting the tone. And I think this is a nice point where you can transition towards leadership style. So if someone asks, What's Kyle's leadership style? What would be your short answer? And then we're gonna have a follow up to expand on that.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think the short answer would be radical transparency and brutal honesty

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Kyle Galbraith: would be the would be the short answer.

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Dewan Ahmed: I love that I think freedom and responsibility go hand in hand. So in order to to be perfectly clear with someone, you need that

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Dewan Ahmed: transparency to build that trust. Now let's dive deeper. So you are a technical co-founder, and then at some point of your career, you are an IC, and then slowly, it didn't happen overnight that I see to management or a founder. How was that transition from Kyle as an individual contributor? And then you're making a transition towards leadership roles. And then you thought, Okay, now may be a time to

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Dewan Ahmed: start a new company.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, I think for me, going from IC into kind of like engineering management was

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Kyle Galbraith: honestly like that was a big jump for me. There was a whole bunch of skills that I had to learn in a new way that I had to view the world.

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Kyle Galbraith: That I massively, massively underestimated

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Kyle Galbraith: which I don't think is uncommon. I think that happens all across our ecosystem.

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Kyle Galbraith: Where there's really.

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Kyle Galbraith: I'm happy to see that there's more of these like principal engineering types of career paths opening up for folks that want to stick in the technical track.

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Kyle Galbraith: But when I made that jump that wasn't really an option like there wasn't a jump into that type of role. There was a jump into management role.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so jumping up into a management role really helped me understand? Like, you have to understand

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Kyle Galbraith: what's going on in people's lives, right? You have to be very empathetic to like their personal lives, not.

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Kyle Galbraith: and you also.

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Kyle Galbraith: You don't want them to view working at that company or your company as like. That's my family, because

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Kyle Galbraith: it's not

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Kyle Galbraith: even I tell people, people that work at depot like we're not. Your family like you should go spend time with your family. You should do your work, get your work done, but, like you should spend time with your family.

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Dewan Ahmed: You mean my.

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Kyle Galbraith: I can't.

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Dewan Ahmed: Shouldn't do expense reimbursement like they shouldn't apply before taking time off like I can't fire them.

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Kyle Galbraith: Well, I mean, I've heard your kid is writing Yaml. So maybe maybe that's maybe it's working out for you. But.

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Dewan Ahmed: That's on me. Yeah, that's totally on me. I shouldn't make him write yam.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah,

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Kyle Galbraith: But yeah, I think, moving up into that kind of like engineering management role and seeing like.

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Kyle Galbraith: what makes people tick right? Because it differs from person to person like. For me, what makes me tick is, I really enjoy

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Kyle Galbraith: going deep into the weeds and solving complex problems and building solutions and building businesses around that.

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Kyle Galbraith: That's not what makes everybody tick

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Kyle Galbraith: And so moving up into engineering management really gave me that insight of like you really have to understand like, why is somebody

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Kyle Galbraith: choosing to be in this career path? Why are they choosing to work at this company?

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Kyle Galbraith: And how can you help them

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Kyle Galbraith: get to their next goal, like maybe their next goal isn't to stay at that company. Maybe their next goal is to go work at

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Kyle Galbraith: some big tech company or go start a consultancy or start a startup?

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Kyle Galbraith: How can I help them do that? So that was kind of like my IC up into engineering management

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Kyle Galbraith: and then going from engineering management into a founder, was really like

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Kyle Galbraith: taking that up to a whole nother level. Which is, how do I do that about

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Kyle Galbraith: at a large scale?

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Kyle Galbraith: Right? So how do I go and create a culture in a company around like

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Kyle Galbraith: fostering people's career paths and building solutions

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Kyle Galbraith: to problems that developers are facing. And so for me, it was taking some of those learnings and then applying it to my startup background where it's like, I want to go solve problems for developers. I want to go make their lives easier.

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Kyle Galbraith: And I know I'm going to need a a team to do it past a certain scale. And so I think, having that transition of going from like I see to engineering manager before becoming a founder, gave me a lot of insights that set me up

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Kyle Galbraith: ahead. Essentially, when I started depot.

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Dewan Ahmed: Agreed.

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Dewan Ahmed: Now, a semi-controversial question. We have all seen that. What's stopping you from coding like this? Those heat maps and people saying that even if you're a manager, you need to do certain level of coding. So where are you with that philosophy, whether managers or Ceos or Ctos? Should code versus they're solving a different set of problems.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think, for me where I'm at right now as a founder and CEO of depot.

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Kyle Galbraith: I have far too many other things going on to be day to day in the code, and it would actually be

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Kyle Galbraith: dangerous and detrimental to the product and team if I was like.

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Kyle Galbraith: intimately involved or intimately in the middle, because I would become a blocker with all of the other things that I have to juggle.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so I think for me. That was a big transition, I would say for me.

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Kyle Galbraith: probably 6 to 10 months ago is really when I kind of like, Okay, I can't. I can't go. And like, build all of these features anymore.

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Kyle Galbraith: Which is about the time that we started hiring other folks right like it's as just 2 founders doing all of that, it became unsustainable.

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Kyle Galbraith: So I think, as a founder, you do reach that point at

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Kyle Galbraith: a certain scale, and that scale is going to depend on industry and tool and what you're building

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Kyle Galbraith: the whole debate around managers, coding or managers not coding.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think that's just all superfluous, honestly like, it varies so much from company to company.

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Kyle Galbraith: And that tone is really set at the company level

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Kyle Galbraith: And so

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Kyle Galbraith: once a company chooses like, okay, like, we're going to have a middle management layer. And they're going to focus on managing the people.

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Kyle Galbraith: It's highly unlikely those managers are going to be coding.

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Kyle Galbraith: But I did see other companies that don't choose that path where they're like. Everybody we hire is effectively going to be an IC,

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Kyle Galbraith: and maybe they have a team or a cohort that they also oversee.

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Kyle Galbraith: But everything has its pros and cons. So managers. Coding has its pro.

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Kyle Galbraith: having teams that are only Ics has its cons as well.

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Dewan Ahmed: I recently heard a saying saying that don't try to be only efficient, try to be effective.

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Dewan Ahmed: So what the speaker was meaning is like, and you can use it for many analogies that you can be efficient in writing code. But would that be effective for the company? Does that build that trust? Are you being good at delegation? Because if you have other people specifically to do that work, how is you being efficient in writing code? Make the whole engine of the company effective.

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Dewan Ahmed: The other part is you as senior engineer or manager, or even Ceos, you have to give that

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Dewan Ahmed: trust that yes, I trust my team in doing this work, and I'm solving other challenges that will make the whole company effective.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, no, that's I'm totally going to borrow that for the future, because it's a hundred percent true, and it only gets more and more true as you start a startup and become a founder

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Kyle Galbraith: is, it's all about being effective, like, what's the most effective thing for the business. And you do reach a point where.

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Kyle Galbraith: yeah? Like, if I had to go program a feature, I could go. Still, do that. I still understand exactly what we're building in the direction that we're heading. Is that the most effective thing for me to do? Though

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Kyle Galbraith: 9 times out of 10 it's not.

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Dewan Ahmed: Now it's time to pivot to the future. I'll paraphrase the quote. I think it's from someone called Yogi.

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Dewan Ahmed: It's difficult to predict, especially when it's about something in future. So we're trying to predict something in future future, of devops, tooling, future of platform engineering, future of devops. We understand whenever we talk about future these days. AI machine learning, those 3 will come up. So we want to hear from Kyle.

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Dewan Ahmed: Where do you see? 5 years from now, platform engineering devops, engineering devsec mlops, some more buzzwords, the reality hype. Where do you see all this.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's everybody's trying to predict that question.

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Kyle Galbraith: for me. The way I see it is

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Kyle Galbraith: we're going to have new tools that make us more efficient.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think we're already seeing that.

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Kyle Galbraith: Which is, how do we effectively get developers, the tools?

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Kyle Galbraith: That can accelerate them.

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Kyle Galbraith: I don't really buy into the hype cycle of like, okay.

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Kyle Galbraith: these tools or this AI or this Llm is going to replace developers. Everything's built on top of code.

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Kyle Galbraith: That's always going to be true. And even when that starts to deviate, everything's built on top of infrastructure.

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Kyle Galbraith: which is even more pertinent to platform and devops, engineering types of droughts.

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Kyle Galbraith: So for me, I think we're going to see an increase in code.

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Kyle Galbraith: not a decrease. So we're going to see more code coming out at a

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Kyle Galbraith: quicker rate because developers are going to be able to

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Kyle Galbraith: move faster. They're going to be more efficient in their roles.

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Kyle Galbraith: We're going to see larger and larger code bases, larger and larger, builds larger and larger deployments.

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Kyle Galbraith: All of those things we're already starting to see.

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Kyle Galbraith: One of the most surprising things I see with depot is people packing Llms into container images during a build

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Kyle Galbraith: which has taken the concept of a container

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Kyle Galbraith: from 4 or 5 GB being big to 50, 60, 70 GB being big.

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Kyle Galbraith: And we're going to see that at the deployment level, too. And we're going to need the tools and services to handle that. We're going to need

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Kyle Galbraith: the deployment platforms, that kind of handle that

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Kyle Galbraith: I honestly think we're going to need to rethink networks. I think networks is going to become a big bottleneck.

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Kyle Galbraith: which is something that we've been thinking a lot about.

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Kyle Galbraith: So I think

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Kyle Galbraith: I don't buy into the hype that it's going to replace developers. I think developers are going to become radically more efficient. And it's going to mean

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Kyle Galbraith: shipping at even faster speeds than we are today.

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Dewan Ahmed: Yeah, if someone says, I just will make a button to do everything well, someone still will need to make that button. So you always need people to build software, even if we and I think historically, we have been building abstractions. It's just another layer of abstraction. So somewhere underneath has to build those layers.

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Kyle Galbraith: And we're constantly revisiting abstractions, too, which is something that I don't think gets talked about enough, because we're always talking about the new thing and the new thing and the new thing.

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Kyle Galbraith: But a lot of the new things tend to be just rethought out abstractions, right? So

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Kyle Galbraith: we see this with testing frameworks. We see this with

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Kyle Galbraith: Javascript Runtimes, and we're going to see it with all the types of tools and AI things that are coming out as well.

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Dewan Ahmed: True, we're almost towards the end of the podcast. And let's end with rewards and choices. So as a co-founder, you probably had moments where it felt very rewarding that the type of work I'm doing is very rewarding. You also might have to make some difficult choices like option A, BC. You took one action. It was very difficult to make those choices. I'm sure some of our listeners they are thinking of

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Dewan Ahmed: pivoting towards founding a company, or whether, going to a more senior role, could you share some of the rewarding experience in your career and some of the more difficult choices you had to make.

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Kyle Galbraith: This is a great question.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think rewarding experiences getting your 1st customer when you're building a startup.

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Kyle Galbraith: Really building not even just a startup like building side projects.

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Kyle Galbraith: which is something that I did a lot of before starting depot.

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Kyle Galbraith: But getting that 1st customer is

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Kyle Galbraith: something you never forget, no matter what you're building

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Kyle Galbraith: and we're lucky in depot in that, like the very 1st customer we ever got is still a customer today.

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Kyle Galbraith: which is.

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Kyle Galbraith: It's just like a compounding reward. It's like as every year ticks by, they continue to use depot. And it's just like that golden nugget reminder.

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Kyle Galbraith: I think, also becoming a leader, and

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Kyle Galbraith: that unlock that I was talking about of going from IC. To engineering manager.

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Kyle Galbraith: That was a very rewarding experience for me because it gave me an insight into

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Kyle Galbraith: no like software is built by people.

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Kyle Galbraith: We talk about this all the time with depot, and

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Kyle Galbraith: people ask me like, well, what's Depot's voice and like

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Kyle Galbraith: company, like vision and things like that? And it's like depot's built by people.

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Kyle Galbraith: We're all human. We make mistakes.

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Kyle Galbraith: We have good things. We have bad things.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so that engineering, like management experience, was super rewarding to essentially learn like.

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Kyle Galbraith: no, like, these aren't just people, software engineers that are just like cranking out code and

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Kyle Galbraith: than leaving for the day. Like they still have. They have lives. They have important things that they want to accomplish in their careers.

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Kyle Galbraith: So that was another like really rewarding experience for me.

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Kyle Galbraith: Challenges fundraising is a is a trying experience.

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Kyle Galbraith: I equate it to speed, dating

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Kyle Galbraith: where, like 9 times out of 10, the answer is going to be like, No, thank you. Which is like, that's a very challenging experience if you're

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Kyle Galbraith: aren't used to rejection.

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Kyle Galbraith: So I think as a founder, I found that to be a very challenging experience. And then

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Kyle Galbraith: there's just always this continuous challenge as a founder of really like

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Kyle Galbraith: you're always operating in a non-deterministic world.

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Kyle Galbraith: So

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Kyle Galbraith: there is always at least a dozen to 2 dozen different things on a daily basis that are outside of my control.

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Kyle Galbraith: that I'm trying to like. Tip the scales into my direction of control. And that's a like that's a challenging environment to operate in.

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Kyle Galbraith: But I find it over time. I've learned to understand like this is fun.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so I think for me what I've learned there is, effectively. If you're going to go down this path of becoming a founder starting a company.

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Kyle Galbraith: make sure that it's something that you want to do.

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Kyle Galbraith: talk to folks that have done it before, to like, understand what you're getting into.

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Kyle Galbraith: But most importantly, like, find something that you're going to enjoy doing for the next 20 years.

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Kyle Galbraith: We were lucky in that

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Kyle Galbraith: building depot was really like building a solution to a problem that we faced ourselves as engineers. We didn't. We just essentially like just went and built a solution that we wanted.

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Kyle Galbraith: And it just so happened that, like, oh, like other people want a solution to this, too.

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Kyle Galbraith: And so for us, it was like, Okay, it's just continuous fun.

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Kyle Galbraith: But not every startup journey or path is like that. There's all kinds of companies pivoting into new areas. They don't know the industry. They don't know the space.

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Kyle Galbraith: So really do your research to make sure that's something that you're going to enjoy doing

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Kyle Galbraith: for the long term.

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Dewan Ahmed: Build something you enjoy doing. We'll end with that. And for listeners. If they want to find you, connect with you where they can learn more about your work and connect with you.

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Kyle Galbraith: Yeah, you can definitely find us@depot.dev I'm on X and twitter whatever they call it nowadays. Kyle Galbraith.

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Kyle Galbraith: and you can also find me out on Linkedin.

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Dewan Ahmed: It was a pleasure chatting with you. Can we say? Au revoir.

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Kyle Galbraith: Of what?

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Dewan Ahmed: All right. Perfect thanks. Thank you for listening to the ship talk podcast. Hosted by harness. The AI native software, delivery platform

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Dewan Ahmed: keep tuned for the next episode, where we talk about the ins and outs, ups and downs of software delivery. Thank you. Everyone. Thanks, Kyle.

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Kyle Galbraith: Thank you.